The Curse Of The Astute

You know what fascinates me? The thought that there are worlds beyond our own where powers beyond what we accept in our scientific, and even religious, viewpoints exist and manipulate the world we think we know. Having experienced quite a few things that could be thought of as evidence of those worlds I’m sensitive to things like that, seeing connections some people might miss or dismiss, and always wondering if they may lead to something wonderful – insane they called it in the olden days. That’s why I’m qualified to tell you the story of something terrifying, the story of a curse. Woo, hope you’re scared, because we’ll be starting with a murder.

You may have read in the papers or heard on the news about a shooting in Southampton recently aboard a submarine. If you haven’t then I’m sure the story will surface (yes, it’s going to be one of those sorts of posts although all respect will hopefully be given to the deceased) at some point. It happened midday on Friday when one Able Seaman Ryan Donovan opened fire with an SA80 assault rifle and attempted to take down the Southampton city council leaders who were on board at the time. Donovan, who has legally changed his name to Reggie Moondogg in pursuit of a gangsta rap career when he leaves the Royal Navy (how he passed the rigourous psychological tests required of submarine staff who face incredible pressure and must be checked on constantly I have no idea), wounded Lieutenant Commander Chris Hodge and killed Lieutenant Commander Ian Molyneux (pictured below), the weapons engineering officer on board at the time. Lieutenant Molyneux leaves behind his wife Gillian and four children. My thoughts and deepest sympathies go out to them in this horrific time.

Royston Smith, the leader of the city council, wrestled the gun away from the murderous seaman and, helped by his chief executive, restrained Donovan until he could be properly taken into custody. At the time of the shooting the submarine HMS Astute was docked in Southampton and being visited by council officials, the Mayor of the city and several groups of schoolchildren who fled for cover when the six shots rang out. Twenty two year old Donovan, who had been denied shore leave for a month while the submarine was going through its exercises, felt the final straw had come when he was denied permission to use the toilet until the visiting dignitaries had used it first.

So tell me, how is someone allowed to get to that state while working on a nuclear submarine, when they have been deemed mentally fit to serve? Could it be yet another part of the curse of the Astute? Ah, you’ve only heard of one incident so far. Settle down children and let me continue my tale…

The Astute is the first of seven planned iterations of a new class of nuclear submarines more advanced than the world had seen before, and launched on the 8th of June 2007. It was designed with capabilities that allow it to purify air and water meaning that the submarine can theoretically stay submerged for as long as it needs to, although a realistic limit is set by the three months worth of food storage it can carry. However this launch had already suffered some major difficulties and setbacks. The launch was 43 months behind schedule and the entire class of submarines were £900 million over budget with just the first one made. The majority of the problems were caused by misinterpreting just how much help 3D computer aided design programs would be, as well as insufficient capabilities within the company that was contracted to build the device (just what you want to hear about a company hired to handle a nuclear reactor). Having been launched in 2007, the Astute went on to sea trials in 2010 and was eventually commissioned as part of the Royal Navy in August of that year, when she was officially named the HMS Astute, despite the anchor and weapons systems failing, the sewage system breaking down (leaving over a hundred submariners without a toilet – that damned toilet again) and an electrical fire breaking out. Before trials had even begun the tower of the submarine caught fire in mysterious circumstances.

It was October that the curse struck again, as the hugely expensive submarine ran aground just off the Isle of Skye (if you’re not from this country then, yes, it is an actual island that floats in the sky) on the 22nd of that month. In an attempt to minimise damage to the submarine, Commander Andy Coles decided to wait for assistance from an emergency tow vehicle rather than freeing the submarine of its own power. This turned out to be a mistake as the Anglian Prince, a vehicle sent to help the grounded submarine, crashed into it and caused more damage to the Astute. Commander Cole found himself facing the prospect of a court martial a week later for that decision and was relieved of his command, while the submarine had to be repaired. While it was subsequently decided that Commander Cole had acted in the best interests of the Navy and the court martial was dropped, I have no doubt that had he continued to captain that vessel he would have been sentenced to death in seconds.

The Astute was off the sea for two months as it was repaired following its grounding and collision and a new captain was assigned, this time veteran Commander Iain Breckenridge who had captained the HMS Tireless (itself a vessel with a history of trouble, twice creating diplomatic problems with Spain due to the timing of its need for repairs in Gibraltar and having to surface through an ice cap after an explosion killed two crew members and injured a third). The Astute launched again on the 11th of December 2010 and soon came limping back to port later that very same day. This time a minor problem with the steam plant had somehow slipped through two months worth of repairs and checks and caused the £1.2 billion vehicle to again be grounded for repairs. In February 2011 the submarine was again grounded for repairs following yet another set of systems failing after being checked repeatedly and found to be in perfect working order. This time the Astute was grounded for six weeks for repairs. It should have stayed there.

Now, as you may have guessed from the top part of this post I’m a little superstitious, having seen enough to convince me that there are forces at work in our lives that we don’t fully understand. As such I’m a little creeped out by the idea of curses, but do you know what scares me much more than that thought? Do you know the thought that scares the living shite out of me? The thought that a nuclear submarine carrying enough weaponry to wipe a few cities off the map and enough nuclear material to cause irreversible damage to the marine ecology of the world might be cursed. I call that common sense.

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46 thoughts on “The Curse Of The Astute

  1. Or at least ends with one. :p. The prediction is for December :whistle:.But it wouldn't be the first time they miscalculated and important Prediction. Nostradamus predicted the attack on the World trade centre. Only they thought it would be in 2000, forgetting that the new millenium only began in 2001. They also expected it in July, forgetting that "September" is Latin for "Seventh Month". :rolleyes:.So ya.

  2. Originally posted by qlue:

    Nostradamus predicted the attack on the World trade centre. Only they thought it would be in 2000, forgetting that the new millenium only began in 2001. They also expected it in July, forgetting that "September" is Latin for "Seventh Month". .

    The word people are looking for in response to both this post and Aadil's comment is "interpretation".

  3. Cool.I like your angle of approach. Makes the Astute some sort of modern Mary Celeste. I've actually heard about this incident, even on Danish television, I think.

  4. It was all over our news, without comments, just as agency news. What this remined me of is an movie made in 2002. K19: The Widowmaker. Based on a true story, it was believed that submarine was cursed – but a real truth was it was made in a hurry, with a lack of money caused by beaurocratic system who was in need to make progress with minimum investments. Did it happen to HMS Astute, actually, to company who made it? I don`t know but it would be interesting to find. It already caused your country (i.e. British tax payers) a lot of trouble, financial, of course, but a reputation of Royal Navy was ruined as well.Not that I care about their reputation, anyway 😛

  5. I've only seen a short paragraph about it in the news here, but nothing about the history of the submarine.Heh. Sounds as if it's just not supposed to be.

  6. Without drawing definite conclusions based on unsubstantial assumptions, I take it that what Mik is telling is, that the angle of approach is important. Mik has chosen to look at the incident as the results of a curse where many others might look at the tragedy as evidence of completely incompentent leadership. It's a choice of angle. The media presents hundreds of stories every day, all of them show the course of events from a certain angle. Mik's story is a reminder to us, to be aware of this.That's how I read it anyways.

  7. There's no confusion about aliens and spirits. Aliens are tourists without passports and spirits comes in bottles. :whistle::p.

  8. So there's (presumably) teams of special forces and secret agencies and whatnot running around trying to make sure the bad guys don't get their hands on nukes/fissile material … there's safety commissions checking reactors all over the place (yet there are still accidents and tragedies: Japan, Chernobyl, 3 Mile Island) … but who's checking the people who check the nuclear submarines?Oh, and here's something to help you sleep better …

  9. Incompetent leadership is a curse in itself. It *is* very disturbing that such a powerful piece of machinery, that has so many inbuilt destructive elements, is banging about the coast, running aground, being rammed and generally falling over even at a relatively basic level such as internal toilet plumbing. And, this is just one of the ones we hear about – there must be others that are kept quiet…..Aliens, or Spirits? Are they one and the same? Hard to say….

  10. taffer writes:I used to serve in the Royal Navy myself , once upon a time I agree that it's all rather strange but I do not think the submarine is cursed at all (all vessels have their fair share of problems. Only difference in this case is that Astute is high profile for being the first of a new class). It goes without saying that the incident is awfully distressing for the families caught up in this and I mean no disrespect to them at all. But I also think it must be rather distressing for Astute's CO. Commander Breckenridge is a fine officer yet the only two fatal incidents that the submarine service has suffered since the turn of the century have both occured on submarines that he has been in command of. I have to add here that both incidents were completely out of his control, they could not be foreseen and they are no reflection on him as a commanding officer. But I do think its a rather horrible coincidence. No?

  11. Anonymous writes:Flarin – "banging about the coast and running aground?" Why not do your homework before posting stupid bloody remarks and making yourself look like a retard? – Not to mention that the cause behind Astute's grounding hasn't been released. So, unless you've gained access to confidential files at the MOD, how the hell can you pass any sort of judgement? Honestly, people have no bloody idea about anything because they cannot be bothered to find out the facts but they all become experts on marine engineering, nuclear physics, marine navigation and submarine warfare as soon as they read of an alleged "military blunder" in The Sun or the like. Speaks volumes really

  12. OK – my apologies – I'll shut up .but…Originally posted by our host:

    …hugely expensive submarine ran aground just off the Isle of Skye (if you're not from this country then, yes, it is an actual island that floats in the sky) on the 22nd of that month. In an attempt to minimise damage to the submarine, Commander Andy Coles decided to wait for assistance from an emergency tow vehicle rather than freeing the submarine of its own power. This turned out to be a mistake as the Anglian Prince, a vehicle sent to help the grounded submarine, crashed into it and caused more damage to the Astute

    … does kinda suggest the sub was, as I put it somewhat disrespectfully I admit, 'banging about the coast', and ran aground, and was rammed by the rescue vessel. Or am I misreading it??? *slightly puzzled*.

  13. @Flarin. They're just voicing their support for the Royal Navy! :lol:.And they're probably right to a degree. We're kinda looking in from the outside and have no idea what's really going on within. :rolleyes:.

  14. If the British have some difficulties to build subs going smoothly I am sure that Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft could help 🙂 That deal could give the papers more stuff than the royal wedding.

  15. Originally posted by anonymous:

    Commander Breckenridge is a fine officer yet the only two fatal incidents that the submarine service has suffered since the turn of the century have both occured on submarines that he has been in command of. I have to add here that both incidents were completely out of his control, they could not be foreseen and they are no reflection on him as a commanding officer.

    Obviously they're no reflection on him as a CO. I had no idea the only two had happened on Astute and Tireless. You'd think with machines designed to spend so long underwater that there'd be more accidents and people that flipped. Gotta feel sorry for that guy eh?Originally posted by anonymous:

    Honestly, people have no bloody idea about anything because they cannot be bothered to find out the facts but they all become experts on marine engineering, nuclear physics, marine navigation and submarine warfare as soon as they read of an alleged "military blunder" in The Sun or the like.

    Oi, Sun readers (and I use the term "readers" lightly) are so not welcome here. Mostly because they keep complaining that the pictures are coloured in already and it takes me hours to decipher the pictograms they put up instead of words. Seriously, last time a Sun reader found this page it was like we'd stepped into ancient Egypt or something. And don't get me started on the Daily Mail…I also wont allow this post to be filled with rudeness, insults or bickering. I understand your support for the navy and your wish to defend them from anyone saying anything bad about them, but the fact remains that the captain of the vessel was relieved of his command after the sub ran aground. It is understandable given these facts for anyone to assume that he'd been a little bit silly with the hardware and, while I'd welcome an official explanation, without one it's obvious that people are going to assume something like that happened. Unless you have access to those secret MOD files you mentioned then assuming they were following procedure perfectly when something like that happened is hopelessly naive. You're welcome to comment again but if you can't keep a civil tongue in your head then those comments will be deleted.Originally posted by Aqualion:

    Cool.I like your angle of approach. Makes the Astute some sort of modern Mary Celeste.

    Yeah, I was planning on writing this a while ago, having heard more of the incidents plaguing this sub than anything else for quite a while and the approach seemed the best way to deal with it. Then the shooting happened and I'm not so sure anymore. A man (a good officer and father from all accounts) lost his life and I don't feel I dealt with that with the reverence it deserved. If I were to write this up again I might add a more serious sidebar dealing with that aspect of the story and showing a little insight into the sort of person he was.Originally posted by Aqualion:

    That's how I read it anyways.

    Nope, I'm just not quite right in the head. ;)Originally posted by gdare:

    it was made in a hurry, with a lack of money caused by beaurocratic system who was in need to make progress with minimum investments. Did it happen to HMS Astute, actually, to company who made it? I don`t know but it would be interesting to find.

    All I can tell you is that the project was £900 million over budget when Astute, the first of seven of these new subs, was produced. A fundamental inability by the contractors has been mentioned publicly as the reason it went so far over budget. After so many incidents one has to suspect those contractors cut a few corners to get the first one finished.Originally posted by clean:

    Oh, and here's something to help you sleep better …

    Remember that town I was stuck in for so long, the one I hated so much it almost drove me to genocide of the Scots? Turns out that was a toxic waste dump in the seventies and babies born there tended to be deformed. Luckily we didn't live in that area of the town but I've lost any fear of radioactivity these days. Especially after I started to stick to walls.Originally posted by rose-marie:

    Sounds as if it's just not supposed to be.

    Long comment. I had to scroll back up to see what I was commenting on then. 😆 Yeah, it does sound like the project is cursed doesn't it.

  16. In my experience as a Government worker, policies and procedures are only ever dusted off and consulted when things in wrong. Most policies are so convoluted and self-contradictory that they are, in fact, impossible to follow to the letter. :faint:. I've come to the conclusion that policies only exist in order to provide convenient scapegoats when things go wrong. :rolleyes:.

  17. Originally posted by qlue:

    policies only exist in order to provide convenient scapegoats when things go wrong

    In politics – macro as well as micro – there's a lot of 'misdirection' going on. Misdirection is actually a term used by illusionists, the technique of misdirecting the attention of the audience away from the trick – like waving a hand in the air, while the other hand slips the egg into the jacket pocket. One of the best ways of misdirecting attention is by pointing your finger. Pointing your finger will draw people's (like news paper readers) attention away from who ever is pointing.Scapegoating is a typical example of this. You appoint somebody to be the scapegoat, and the surchlight of the press, thus everybody else's attention, will be fixed on the poor sod. And while he is being judged and run through the torture and humiliation of public slander, the actual sinners can clean up the mess and get everything out of sight.It's a classic.

  18. Actually, the term, "court martialed" is just lazy slang. :p. (the correct term is, "called before a Court Martial" :p)

  19. Every commander of a ship has to be court martialed after such an accident. I know that from all the Master and Commander-books I have read. 😉

  20. Which brings us back to the 'Captain of the ship' being relieved of duty and called before a Court Martial, while things get cleaned up, only to be found not guilty of any wrong doing. The powers that be most likely knew that he wasn't guilty of anything, but the Court Martial conveniently takes attention away from the real cause of the problem just long enough for people to get bored and stop looking. :p.Another trick used by politicians and magicians alike is to hide the truth in plain sight! :faint:. The more obvious something, is, the less likely people are to notice it for some reason.The magic trick that illustrates this well is the 'Rocket Ship'.A magician assembles a cabinet shaped like a rocket from a series of flat panels, climbs inside and closes the doors. Then a team of overall wearing stage hands come along and disassembles the cabinet, leaving a pile of flat panels on the stage.So where did the magician go? The answer is, inside the cabinet, he changes into overalls and simply joins the team of stagehands while they disassemble the cabinet. :doh:.The clue is that it only took one magician to assemble the cabinet, but for some, unexplained reason, it takes twenty+ stagehands to disassemble it. :faint:. The magician walks off the stage in plain sight, yet none of the audience sees him go. :rolleyes:.David Copperfield used a variation of this ploy to 'walk through' The Great Wall Of China. He did this in front of a live audience off thousands, not to mention hundreds of tv cameras from all angles. :lol:.

  21. Spent to much time with these folks from the colonies on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, you know :devil:

  22. Originally posted by Pineas2:

    That deal could give the papers more stuff than the royal wedding.

    Bet you money at least one of the British papers would call them Nazis. :lol:Originally posted by Aqualion:

    In politics – macro as well as micro – there's a lot of 'misdirection' going on.

    This is especially true of Britain. A copper shoots a guy who was just going home from work and reports him as a suspected terrorist who had run away when asked to stop. Video evidence is shown to prove that the guy didn't run at all but stopped and was shot in the head for no apparent reason, yet the copper got off scot free. Amazingly the trial was rushed through by the justice department on the date Britain joined the war in Iraq (something big happened and I think that was the one but I'm not entirely sure) despite there being a date set for later in the year and the piece of news became a footnote to bigger events. In that particular case I agree with Nick's view of coppers.Originally posted by Pineas2:

    Every commander of a ship has to be court martialed after such an accident.

    I'm glad I posted this. Finding out lots of things I didn't know before, and that is my aim in life.Originally posted by qlue:

    The magic trick that illustrates this well is the 'Rocket Ship'.

    There's an old bartender trick that works the same way. When a bartender is going home and has to go out amongst the groups of leery drunks who are out to cause trouble, they'll have a quick drink so they smell like alcohol, change from work clothes into going out clothes and add a little stagger. I used to advise some of my smaller guys to do this (not a safe one for girls unfortunately) so they could avoid trouble by blending in and becoming one of "us" instead of one of "them" in their subconscious minds.

  23. I actually just wrote a newspaper story on the subject of magic tricks used in politics last week. I got a load of comments to the online version, including a few from stage illusionists who said, that they often discuss this amongst themselves. Actually one of them compared politician's spin doctors with the magician's female assistent. Both the pretty assistent and the spin doctors are there to draw attention away from what is really happening. Diversion. Or misdirection. There's a lot of it about. And they've all got it up the sleaves and in secret pockets. Smoke, mirrors and double floors – they know all the tricks.

  24. Originally posted by Mik:

    …becoming one of "us" instead of one of "them" in their subconscious minds.

    And that's one of the secrets of being able to avoid (bullies, or) groups of potential 'trouble' on the streets. Body language is key, isn't it. Fit in, don't be afraid, and you're wearing a suit of armour.

  25. Fitting in isn't really that important. Its strength lies more in helping certain sorts of people find the confidence they need. A placebo, if you will, as it's that confidence that is all important as armour.It's been said that I strut around like I own a place. To be fair that's only because I'm one stretch away from a severed spinal column, but the effect is the same – my walk is a mixture of John Travolta in Greece and Triple H. Even if I weren't the living embodiment of confidence I doubt I'd run into much trouble due to the image of confidence that walk gives off.Of course, there are those who sense confidence in others and perceive it as a threat, so not even a being of pure confidence is safe from someone trying to lord it over them. That's where violence seems to be the only answer.

  26. Yes I agree – well put – 'confidence'. It seems to work in most situations (and I managed to recover from the typo 'moist situations' rather deftly). I think that's what I was trying to imply with the 'fitting in' observation.Do the comments in this post make it seem like many 'authority' figures are actually often (just) actors being directed in a play, the plot of which is hidden from the audience, or is it my possibly questionable imagination??\edit : my walk and visage, which (I am told) says "who the fuck are you looking at?" has kept me out of a lot of otherwise potentially difficult moments, I must admit.

  27. I have a weird ability to seem like I belong. It just developed over time. (I didn't have it as a kid)Also, when I wall through town, people have suggested that it's more like 'running' than walking due to the speed I walk at. :p.I walk at a speed between three to four Kilometres an hour. :left:.

  28. People tell me, I have 'the look'. Something in my eyes that tell people not to mess with me. I don't know about that. I just see two blue eyes when I look at myself. I also have a smooth, deep comforting voice, and I think that is why strangers seem to like me. Like a DJ on late night radio. That voice has been a dear friend to me many times, especially back in the days when I was a news editor. Leadership means authority, and what can be more authoritative (is that a word?) than a deep, comnforting voice.Since 2003 I have been walking like Gregory House, only without the stick. Appearing crippled also has its advantages.

  29. Anonymous writes:Flarin – I apologise for my rather rude remarks earlier. It was nothing personal. I shouldn't have said what I said. At the end of the day you were only voicing your opinion based on the facts available to you. The only problem is that, most of the time, those facts are made available to us via the media and , as we all know, the media is becoming less and less about the truth and more about telling a good story for entertainment value.Mik – Apologies. There are many words i could use to describe my negative sides but naive wouldn't be one of them – I'm afraid I dont have access to those confidential files on the grounding of Astute, but during my own time in the Royal Navy , I have had access to and read many of the confidental reports into many collisions and groundings of warships and submarines of the Royal navy over the past 30 years ( not for fun , i must add!). Most of these incidents have never made the news of course. All I can say is that in most cases, the cause of each incident was far more complex than what it initially seemed- particularly the incidents involving submarines. As i'm sure you are all aware, submarines operate far closer to the seabed than surface ships (obviously), and so the risk of grounding is far higher and so the margin of error is far smaller (hence grounding of submarines occurring slightly more frequently than grounding of ships). Combine this with the fact that underwater features (such as sandbanks) can shift and change quite quickly, which would not necessarliy show up on a nautical chart, and the fact that we are operating 6000 ton submarines in increasingly littoral theatres (since the government sold off all our shallow water diesel electric submarines)and the fact that all you can see of the outside world in a submarine is through a periscpoe the size of your fist then it is hardly suprising that these events occur occcassionally. To be honest, it is to the crews' credit that these incidents don't happen more often. So all I was really trying to say was to resist the urge to jump to conclusions based on what the media says until all the facts are established by means of an official investigation – Because we all know that what the media says is not necessarily the full story.

  30. Anonymous writes:But anyway – apologies for going off on a tangent. Believe it or not, one of my pet hates is posts that have nothing to do with the article at hand haha. But i'd like to add that I did find the article interesting. Sailors are a superstitious bunch and always have been. We dont tend to think so much of ships being cursed but we do believe that people can sometimes be cursed (or Jonahs as they're otherwise called). A jonah on your ship is never a good thing. I've always been interested in stuff like that. I remember once reading about the Titanic. I don't know how many people have heard this before, but when she sailed out of Southampton she was passing a smaller ship that was moored to the jetty. As the Titanic passed her, the suction from titanic's huge propellers caused this smaller ship to break free of her moorings and her stern swung out into the path of the Titanic. The titanic managed to stop just in time with a matter of meters to spare. A collision was averted but the incident did cause the Titanic to be delayed by a few hours and it was not a good start to a maiden voyage. People on board the titanic at the time were saying that the incident was a bad omen. Now I don't think the incident in itself is all that significant save for one small fact – the name of the smaller ship that nearly hit the Titanic was called the "New York".

  31. I want to personally thank you for that mature return to this topic. There's not many left in this country who would do that, or even be capable of doing that, sadly enough. Not only that but you've brought a considerable amount of new information to the topic, which is something I love. More information and the voice of experience actually elevates this above most of the newspaper stories on the subject.The media loves to focus on one area of a story (I noticed the gangsta rap name had become the focus of this story rather than the deceased seaman and the family he leaves behind) and it's unavoidable for someone else writing it up that they delve into these "sources" for more information. Personally I try to provide the whole picture with details from as many different sources as possible and with as much entertainment value as possible then let people make their own minds up, but it does lead to pointing in the wrong direction occasionally.My emphasis on Commander Cole being taken off duty was to point out yet another effect of the "curse" I'm showing in the main post (perspective and the fluidity of truth are things I've dealt with a lot on this page), but I can see on a second read how it looks like I was saying he'd been fooling around so I blame myself for this misunderstanding.

  32. The list of topics the media can't report on properly because of a mixture of ignorance, laziness and prejudice gets increasingly long. But tune in next week when they're all filled with royal wedding fluff :irked:

  33. I'm happy to say that I've been out of town for the entire Royal wedding roadshow, missed every second of reportage about it and am hugely pleased with myself :happy:

  34. Dee and I decided to have a movie night for the royal wedding, and we avoided the TV for the weeks leading up to it, just to make sure we weren't exposed to any of it. I mean, good on them for getting married, but I wish the media would STFU about it!Back when Charles and Di were married, it was on all 4 channels (that were available at the time) and the shelves of the video stores were EMPTY!Wonder what the TV ratings were on this one?

  35. I actually didn't know that 'The Royals' is that big in the States. I just learned that recently… Makes you wonder…

  36. I've seen a report that says 27 million in UK and 22 million in US – which seems a bit on the low side for the US, but then, I think people are beginning to realise that 'The Royals' are not quite what they were even in the days of Charles & Diana…

  37. No, we have our own, you know… 42 million kroner per royal person per year out of the state budget, according to the latest statistics.

  38. …yeah – never been a 'Royalist' myself, although not disliking them in particular…I think the attraction overseas (by which I mean US) might be in all the pomp & gravity and implied history that these events are given by the UK media….. 🙂

  39. But yours are better looking than the Brits, plus you have Australian blood in there now :up: Vincent aka 'Crocodile' and Josephine aka 'Sheila' – that should keep everyone amused 😀

  40. Originally posted by FlaRin:

    Vincent aka 'Crocodile' and Josephine aka 'Sheila' – that should keep everyone amused

    😀 :DYou just made my day. A good joke, first thing in the morning, is not a bad way to start your week.:yes:

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